The World Today - Feminists debate 'The Great = Feminist Denial'

Transcript

This is a transcript from The World = Today. The=20 program is broadcast around Australia at 12:10pm on ABC = Local=20 Radio.

You can also listen to the story in REAL=20 AUDIO and WINDOWS=20 MEDIA and MP3=20 formats.

Feminists debate 'The Great = Feminist=20 Denial'

PRINT=20 FRIENDLY

EMAIL= =20 STORY

The World Today - Friday, 29 = August ,=20 2008 12:39:00

Reporter: Eleanor Hall

ELEANOR HALL: It has been = pilloried as=20 the preserve of hairy-legged lesbians. It has been = blamed for=20 misleading women by telling them they could have it = all. It=20 has even been seen as responsible for the rise of = teenage=20 raunch culture.

But is feminism now simply = irrelevant=20 to young women?

A couple of 30-something women = say=20 absolutely not.

In their book - "The Great = Feminist=20 Denial" - Monica Dux and Zora Simic argue that = feminism is=20 unfairly blamed for much of what troubles women. And = they're=20 calling on younger women to continue the fight for = women's=20 rights.

So will those women answer the=20 call?

Joining us now to talk about the future = of=20 feminism are three women, all of whom call or have = called=20 themselves feminists but who disagree on just what = that=20 means.

One is the co-author of "The Great = Feminist=20 Denial", Monica Dux. She is in our Melbourne = studio.

In=20 Canberra we're joined by one of the book's targets, = Virginia=20 Haussegger. She presents the ABC-TV news in Canberra = and is=20 the author of a passionate and very personal opinion = piece in=20 which she blamed feminism for her failure to have a = baby. The=20 huge response to that article led her to write her = 2005 book=20 "Wonder Woman - The Myth of Having it All".

And = in our=20 Sydney studio is Jessica Brown. She is in her 20s and = is a=20 policy analyst at the Centre for Independent Studies, = where=20 she researches work and family issues.

Welcome = to you=20 all.

First to you Monica Dux, you say in your = book that=20 it was a question from a 15-year-old to the feminist = icon=20 Germaine Greer that made you and Zora Simic decide to = write=20 "The Great Feminist Denial". Tell us about = that?

MONICA=20 DUX: Well, we were really fascinated by the extent to = which=20 Germaine Greer is constantly mentioned by women of all = ages as=20 representative of the feminist movement. And "The = Female=20 Eunuch" was written over 30 years ago.

It did = have a=20 very big impact on the feminist movement in the second = wave=20 but there has been so much that has happened since = then and=20 for us, we found that quite troubling that this is a=20 stereotype that persists and we really wrote this book = as an=20 attempt to address some of the feminist culpability = that gets=20 spread around about feminism and has increasingly been = spread=20 around about feminism.

ELEANOR HALL: And you = say a=20 generational chasm opened in the 1990s. What was it = that=20 turned young women off?

MONICA DUX: Well, I = don't think=20 it is a matter of women being turned off feminism as = women=20 being told that feminism was a terrible thing. I mean = in the=20 90s you had a lot of generational infighting which was = amplified by the media.

You also had a = mainstreaming of=20 feminism where suddenly it belonged to everyone. So = anyone=20 could suddenly be commentator from an opinion piece = writer to=20 a 17-year-old girl on the street.

And I think = this=20 constant disparaging of feminism which has gone up a = notch in=20 the last decade, has turned women off, not so much = feminism=20 because they will most often espouse feminist = principles but=20 it has turned them off what they imagine feminism to = actually=20 be.

ELEANOR HALL: Now Jessica Brown, do you = agree that=20 many young women like you in their 20s or younger, = were turned=20 off, perhaps not so much by feminism, at least by the = way it=20 was portrayed?

JESSICA BROWN: Um, yeah. I think = that=20 women, young women today aren't necessarily = anti-feminist; it=20 is more that a lot of young women don't necessarily = see the=20 relevance of feminism to their lives.

So much = of=20 feminism still seems to be hung up on that victim = complex; the=20 idea that women are oppressed and need to be = liberated. And=20 young women today do better than boys at school, have = so many=20 choices about work, relationships, children; that I = just don't=20 think it is relevant for young women to, they don't = feel=20 oppressed.

ELEANOR HALL: Do you call yourself a = feminist, and feel comfortable?

JESSICA BROWN: = I do, I=20 do but I think that um, I think that to overcome this = feminism=20 really needs to update itself and take account of the = fact=20 that since the big battles of feminism, the world has = changed=20 and in a large part because of those big battles of = feminism.=20 And I think for feminism to be relevant for my = generation, it=20 sort of needs to be updated to take that into=20 account.

ELEANOR HALL: And do you agree with = what=20 Monica Dux was saying that Germaine Greer is still the = sort of=20 feminist icon that even young women look = to?

JESSICA=20 BROWN: Well, I mean we have seen her only this week in = the=20 media. So look, I don't know if she is the icon that = people=20 look to her if she is just you know saturation = coverage and=20 she is everywhere.

ELEANOR HALL: Now Virginia = Hausegger=20 you are one of the women criticised in this book for = blaming=20 feminism for your problems. Do you still call yourself = a=20 feminist?

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGER: (Laughs) Oh, look = Eleanor, here we go again. Yes, I do. I always have = since I=20 was very young and I always will and look I just want = to=20 qualify something here. I'm not sure if Monica has = actually=20 read my book and if she has, she has either chosen to = fail to=20 understand it or has chosen to misinterpret it because = it has=20 provided a very comfortable punching bag for her=20 book.

But this so-called blame of mine which = she very=20 snidely refers to in her book, is actually quite=20 misrepresenting what I've said. And anyone that has = read the=20 book would know that.

ELEANOR HALL: Do you = stand by=20 what you wrote in your article "The Sins of our = Feminist=20 Mothers"?

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGER: Yeah, of course I = do. Of=20 course I absolutely do. Yeah.

ELEANOR HALL: So = tell us,=20 what is it that you are saying there? Are you critical = of the=20 older feminists?

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGER: Look, what = I said=20 back in 2002, I said that I was really angry and I = felt daft=20 and I felt foolish and I did and look, you know, for = anyone, I=20 mean, anyone that suddenly finds themselves facing the = brick=20 wall of infertility, I don't think that is an = unreasonable=20 response.

It just so happened that I went and = told the=20 world about it. You know, perhaps I should have shut = up. But=20 the fact that I did has actually opened the door for a = lot of=20 discussion and I certainly am happy about = that.

ELEANOR=20 HALL: You got an enormous response to that article, = didn't=20 you?

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGER: Yeah, look absolutely = and look=20 this is where Monica's book is very contradictory. On = one hand=20 she slaps me around the head and on the other hand = talks about=20 how my argument resonated with so many = people.

Well,=20 the fact that it did resonate is an important thing. I = still=20 have young women coming up to me to talk to me about = having=20 read my book or heard about it or contacting me to say = that=20 they've read it and it has really made them = think.

And=20 look that is a terrific thing. I was actually giving a = talk an=20 ANU just two nights ago to a student group and the = number of=20 women, young women in their early 20s that came up to = me=20 afterwards and asked me to sign the book and all that = kind of=20 stuff.

And I was saying to them, look, you = know, you=20 don't need to worry about this stuff just yet but it = is good=20 that you are thinking about it.

When you plan = your=20 futures and make decisions that will shape your = futures and=20 your careers, it is important to think about these = thinks -=20 the issues of fertility I am talking = about.

ELEANOR=20 HALL: Monica Dux, Virginia Hausegger was just accusing = you of=20 slapping her around the head. What is your problem = with her=20 criticism of feminism?

MONICA DUX: Look, I = don't and I=20 don't think there is anything actually contradictory = in what=20 we say about Hausegger's work. I do stand by the fact = that I=20 think that it did press a lot of buttons. I was = actually in my=20 20s at the time when that article was published and I = found=20 that the accusation that somehow feminism had let = Hausegger=20 down was misleading.

I think that is a = fundamental=20 problem of a lot of the way that feminism is being = blamed is=20 that it misses a lot of historical facts about what = the=20 feminist movement is and what it stood for and its = continued=20 evolution. And I do think that fertility, we don't = deny that=20 at all, fertility and childlessness is a growing issue = for=20 women.

But we need to look at the broader = societal=20 factors that bring this into play and not just pin the = blame=20 on the feminists which I think is done quite=20 often.

ELEANOR HALL: Jessica I am going to = bring you in=20 a moment but let's just hear from Virginia Hausegger = again=20 because I can hear Virginia wanting to come in=20 there.

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGER: Yeah, that is a = terribly=20 simplistic response to what I was saying and it is = totally=20 misunderstanding and it is indeed misrepresenting=20 it.

When I talked about my feminist = foremothers, what I=20 was urging us all to do is to take a look at the = messages of=20 feminism. Now Monica's book, in amongst saying many = other=20 things, one of the things it does acknowledge is that=20 motherhood for feminism has been a problem.

In = fact she=20 talks about those problems being voluminous and that=20 motherhood has been very problematic for feminism. = That is one=20 of the things that I was really zooming in on. =

When I=20 was young in the 70s and in the early 80s when I was = at=20 university, motherhood was something that was shunned. = I mean=20 if you go back as far as Betty Friedan and Feminine = Mystique=20 that was all about the shackles of domestic life and=20 motherhood. Now they were the sorts of things I was = responding=20 to.

These are messages that we need to actually = talk=20 about and say, you know what, they may not be = appropriate=20 anymore and in fact, they may in fact give people or = give=20 young women the wrong message.

ELEANOR HALL: = Let me=20 bring Jessica Brown in here because she is one of = these young=20 women. Jessica Brown, you are in your 20s. Now do you = have=20 sympathy for Virginia Hausegger's criticism of=20 feminism?

JESSICA BROWN: Yeah, look = in a=20 way I do. I do and I don't. On the one hand I think, = you know,=20 people should always take responsibility for their own = decisions and their own life but I think Virginia is = accepting=20 that.

Look, I do think that now it has gone = beyond that=20 idea, the feminist ideal of the career woman and now = the=20 feminist ideal is the working mother and it is still = sort of=20 being put up as you know this feminist ideal that = people=20 should aspire to.

MONICA DUX: I would like to = ask=20 Jessica though, see I think there is this problem = where often=20 we talk about the feminist ideal or this feminist way = of=20 thinking and who actually are you referring = to?

So=20 often people will talk about feminism without actually = citing=20 any feminists or any real knowledge about what the = movement is=20 continuing to represent and what is actually going on = with=20 active real life feminists.

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGAR: = Monica's book propagated that.

ELEANOR HALL: = Let's have=20 Jessica Brown answer Monica Dux's question. I could = just walk=20 away really couldn't I?

JESSICA BROWN: No, look = I think=20 that is a very good point and I don't speak, I think = feminism=20 has really been democratised and I don't speak, you = know, as a=20 feminist scholar but rather as a woman and just = talking to you=20 know woman of my generation. And I think that there is = this=20 sort of pervasive message which is coming from the = media. It=20 is coming from government policy which is so focused = on things=20 like childcare.

All of these issues which sort = of=20 says, the ideal woman now is the working mother and if = you are=20 stay-at-home mum or you remain single and choose not = to have=20 children well you are sort of not really fitting in = with that=20 ideal.

I think women are hugely different = individuals=20 and we need to, you know feminism really needs to be = about=20 allowing women to make choice and sort of have = equality of=20 opportunity - not necessarily the equality of=20 outcome.

ELEANOR HALL: And Jessica Brown, you = do=20 research on the work/life balance question. Do you = think that=20 there are big fights still left for women to have in = the=20 workplace?

JESSICA BROWN: I do but I think that = a lot=20 of the work/life balance thing is again focusing on = this=20 equality of outcomes for women.

One of the big = things=20 at the moment is everyone is talking about the gender = wage gap=20 and the fact that on average women earn less money = then men.=20 And that is fine, but a lot of that ignores the fact = that most=20 of the gap is caused by women who choose to take time = out of=20 the workforce to spend time with their kids, you=20 know.

If you want to overcome the gender wage = gap well=20 you outlaw stay-at-home mums but you know, do we = really want=20 to take that choice away from women.

ELEANOR = HALL:=20 Monica Dux, now your book argues that there is still a = real=20 role for feminism in the workplace. Does Jessica Brown = though=20 have a point, that you know, it is individual women = making=20 choices and it is not necessarily about=20 discrimination?

Things like the gender wage=20 gap.

MONICA DUX: Well, look first of all I = would say=20 that feminism has always been about choice and about = winding=20 women's opportunities. When we come to the gender wage = gap,=20 now that is an issue not so much for women today. I am = a=20 mother, I have a small child and I work part-time. My = earnings=20 are compromised as a result. That is fine.

But = in 40=20 years when I get my superannuation and it is less = because I=20 was earning 66 cents in the male dollar, as a result = then=20 there is an outcome of this. We have a large = population of=20 Boomer women who are going to be suffering severe = poverty as=20 they head into retirement because their superannuation = balances are not the same as men's because they have = taken up=20 care roles.

I am all for care roles. I am all = for=20 choice of stay-at-home mothers but we need to be aware = of the=20 outcomes of that and what actually, how are we going = to care=20 for our society. And I think this is what feminism has = often=20 discussed and it gets thrown into this idea that it is = about=20 hating mothers or hating working mothers or hating=20 stay-at-home mothers and it is simply = not.

ELEANOR=20 HALL: Virginia Haussegger, what is your view? Is there = still a=20 glass ceiling in the workplace that needs to be=20 shattered?

VIRGINIA HAUSEGGAR: Yeah. Look = absolutely=20 clearly and extremely and look I read Jessica's piece = in the=20 Sydney Morning Herald and I've got to say I thought it = was=20 obviously well put and well argued but also very=20 naive.

The pay gap, the fact that we have a 16 = per cent=20 pay gap, Jessica is relevant. It does matter and it is = not=20 small in the scheme of things.

The fact that we = have to=20 few women in senior positions in corporate roles in = Australia=20 and business leadership roles is significant. And to = suggest=20 that we want equality of opportunity and not equality = of=20 outcomes is just plain silly. I just think that is = wrong.=20

But look Eleanor, I just want to go back to = something.=20 I am really concerned that Monica's book, whilst there = is some=20 good reading in it, also just adds to the general = confusion=20 that young women like Jessica are now feeling. I mean = Monica=20 has set up feminism in this book as some sort of = religion or=20 some sort of club and that she and her co-writer will = stand at=20 the door and decide who gets in and who gets = out.

I=20 mean she actually says they want to out the impostors = and the=20 phoneys and identify the saboteurs. Now this is really = silly,=20 snide, bitching kind of old-style feminist talk - the = very=20 thing that Jessica and her younger cohorts probably = find quite=20 appalling.

ELEANOR HALL: Now we are almost out = of time.=20 I am going to give a very quick response to Monica Dux = and=20 Jessica Brown. Monica Dux first.

MONICA DUX: I = just=20 think if Virginia had read the book closely, she would = understand what we meant by imposters which is a kind = of=20 Miranda Devine-esque appropriation of feminism which = isn't=20 feminism. We do need to draw a line and I stand by=20 that.

ELEANOR HALL: And Jessica = Brown.

JESSICA=20 BROWN: Look, I don't think young women are really = confused in=20 that many ways at all. I think they are quite = empowered. There=20 is a huge variety of choices that women can make and I = think=20 it doesn't help them to be constantly painting them as = victims.

ELEANOR HALL: Well, thank you very = much to all=20 of you for coming in. We could of course continue this = discussion for some time.

Jessica Brown in our = Sydney=20 studio from the Centre for Independent Studies. = Virginia=20 Hausegger in Canberra. She presents the ABC-TV news in = Canberra and Monica Dux, the co-author of the "Great = Feminist=20 Denial".

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Transcript

Feminists debate 'The Great = Feminist=20 Denial'

The World Today - Friday, 29 = August ,=20 2008 12:39:00

Reporter: Eleanor Hall